Just Bloody Post It! podcast with Helen Perry

Podast Transctipt: “Just Bloody Post It!” with Helen Perry

Recorded 16th March 2022

[00:00:08.230] - Speaker 1

Helen: Hello, I'm Helen Perry, and this is the Just Bloody Post It podcast, a show designed to inspire anyone who's out there marketing their work on the Internet. Whether you're doing Insta or emails or maybe considering a podcast, your people are here. This time we're going to talk about the serious business of sharing the news on social media.

[00:00:32.520] - Speaker 2

Lydia: I'm part of a chorus, not a solo. I'm bringing my perspective and my insights and occasionally my opinions, but I don't want people to only listen to me, that I'm only one source, and every source brings its own bias.

[00:00:47.640] - Speaker 1

Helen: Our guest is Lydia Finney, who runs a this should not work, but it really does. Instagram account Lovely Lydia, which balances stories from her small craft business with life in Suffolk, with her husband and dogs, and her deeply held passion for and knowledge of politics and current affairs. She shares exceptionally thoughtful and educational commentary on big news stories, spending what must be hours answering questions and explaining just what the hell is going on in the world. Now. At the moment, during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, she's basically running her own news channel from her kitchen table. I began by asking Lydia where her passion for politics comes from.

[00:01:35.370] - Speaker 2

Lydia: It really stems from my school days when I studied politics at A Level and then went on to read History and Politics at Newcastle. So I had that kind of academic interest fairly early on, and then, through a series of life events, ended up working in Brussels for our Representation to the EU. So at that time, the UK were members of the European Union, and we were among the 27 Member States that had an embassy effectively to the EU. And it was almost like a mini Whitehall. So all of the government departments are represented there, and I worked there for five years. And a lot of the way that I talk now about politics is reminiscent of the way that I used to talk with my colleagues. That was in the bar, which happens quite a lot, or just generally general chat. And that was also where I met my husband. His name is Mike, but I always refer to him as the Matelot because he was in the Navy for 37 years and retired very senior, and he was a senior diplomat in Brussels when we met. And I think my relationship with him is pretty key to this because we talk about politics all the time and we talk about current affairs all the time, and he has extensive experience in Whitehall as well as in the Navy, in policy and so on.

[00:02:58.450] - Speaker 2

So while I'm kind of the face of my account, he is there, and he's also a bit of a researcher for me as well. So he's a silent partner most of the time, but whenever he comes on, he gets a lot of attention.

[00:03:15.390] - Speaker 1

Helen: I know. I'm really pleased that you explained how to pronounce that. I thought it was mate-lot.

[00:03:24.450] - Speaker 2

Lydia: You're not alone. Lots of people I do occasionally come on and just correct it because it is the French for sailor and it's a naval nickname for sailor. And actually in Devon it's usually pronounced mat-low rather than Matelot, which would be there. But there's an old story that basically when we met he gave me this whole sob story about how he was "just a poor matelot down on his luck". And I thought it was the most ridiculous and hilarious thing I'd ever heard. So he became The Matetlot ever since then.

[00:03:53.760] - Speaker 1

Helen: I love that he's a different kind of Instagram husband entirely, supporting your account, not necessarily by taking photos of you, but acting as a researcher.

[00:04:06.610] - Speaker 2

Lydia: He does that too Helen. Actually poor man has been made to stand in the middle of roads and other dangerous places in order to capture photographs of me because I also have a sewing account where I talk about my dressmaking and so he's often my photographer for that. So he is actually roped in in all sorts of ways. Poor man.

[00:04:25.570] - Speaker 1

Helen: As I mentioned, your account is such an example of how we're all more than just one simple thing or type of person. Because alongside the political commentary that you guys share, you are also showing off the things that you make and create. Tell us about that side of you.

[00:04:46.270] - Speaker 2

Lydia: I've never planned any of this. I'm not a strategic thinker in that way. Mike's career in the Navy ended after his stint in Brussels. And so we were coming back to the UK, came to Suffolk for want of anywhere else to go, really. And we decided that we were going to work for ourselves and do that rather than try and commute and so on in order to really spend as much time together as possible. So I just ended up printing and sewing and making things as something to do. And I had all sorts of little businesses on the side. We also run a little Airbnb studio in our garden. And really the whole talking about politics came about because I was doing it anyway, pre business in that the Brexit referendum was going on and I spent a lot of time talking about that and kind of people had feelings but they didn't necessarily have the facts and figures at their disposal. I forget which year it was, but I think it was about 2017, 2018 when Instagram launched stories and all of a sudden there was this very easy way to kind of chat to people that was instant, only lasted 24 hours, was very conversational and I just started talking about Brexit and saying this is what they're saying, but what you need to know is XYZ and started breaking it down that way.

[00:06:10.210] - Speaker 2

That's how it started. And I've spoken in the same tone in the same way, whether it was to five people and it's now 25,000 people that follow me in exactly the same way that I did then.

[00:06:21.470] - Speaker 1

Helen: It really challenges that perception of a platform like Instagram or any social media. In fact, it challenges several perceptions. First of all, that it's a light, happy place and you should go on there to share your beautiful designs or your funny memes or your beautiful children or your dog or whatever it might be. And it's not a place to talk about something that's serious and heavy. And it's not a place where you would dare to have an opinion, but you've found the opposite to be true. There is absolutely an audience there for more serious current affairs content, isn't there?

[00:06:56.920] - Speaker 2

Lydia: Absolutely. And I'm by no means the only person bringing political opinion and thought to Instagram. I think it really depends on what corner of Instagram you find yourself. And yes, you can entirely curate your screens to only take in certain amounts of content on different topics. But there's so much political content on there. And definitely the space that I'm in and I think we're all providing something different. And it's something that I say a lot, which is that I'm part of a chorus, not a solo, that I'm bringing my perspectives and my insights and occasionally my opinions. But I don't want people to only listen to me, that I'm only one source and every source brings its own bias because we always bring an edit. What I choose to share, what I choose to say is as much about what I don't say and what I leave out we all do that, consciously or not. And so listening to me, I then also say that there are other accounts that you can get more information from, especially when it comes to big events like Ukraine, sharing lots of Ukrainian accounts and other people that have valuable insight because just one voice is the way that we can end up in Echo Chambers very easily if we only listen to people that we agree with and they are telling us things we want to hear.

[00:08:17.930] - Speaker 1

Helen: Why do you think that people are seeking out voices such as yours? Is it because you can stick your neck out more about what's going on, what the truth might be, what your take on it is? Or do they like to hear it from somebody who they feel is a friend? Why are people drawn to you? Do you think?

[00:08:39.180] - Speaker 2

Lydia: There's very much a mix of things. So when it comes to the media, less so on television, but certainly in quite a lot of news accounts and news online and in print, you're going to have a headline and that's only going to give you the information in very broad primary colours and what comments and editorials do, and what I do is to kind of dig a bit deeper and to try and flesh that out with some more colours and nuance, light and shade. There's definitely an element of it being a friendly voice. And I talk about my work as being a digest. So I'm taking things and I'm kind of making it more accessible in that way. And people also can come to me with questions in a way that you can't do that with a newspaper article. And we have an interaction online that is entirely unusual, and I'm not sure it's available in other spaces quite to the same extent.

[00:09:42.610] - Speaker 1

Helen: I imagine that your DMs are a very busy place. And, Lydia, you often actually invite questions and ask people to tell you what they are struggling to understand or what they'd like you to expand on. How do you cope with that volume of incoming traffic? Especially busy news periods become quite overwhelming, I imagine.

[00:10:04.390] - Speaker 2

Lydia: Yeah, it's a lot, but it's never constant. So the first week of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, I did, I think, 70 hours on Instagram talking to people, whether that was recording, whether that was answering messages, having conversations with people. And we're now at the stage we're now in our third week of the war, and there is an element of fatigue and that this has become much more normalised. And so the level of engagement has dropped off, which is a natural occurrence. It always happens because it's feeling more normal to everybody and it's not normal, but that's a human reaction to huge events. We can't live at a crisis point for very long. And so we naturally kind of adapt down. That reaching out to people for understanding and to have their questions answered and to an extent have their hand held a little bit to kind of go, okay, this is a huge thing I'm not really comprehending and seeking that reassurance in some way.

[00:11:11.680] - Speaker 1

Helen: There was an enormous amount of overwhelm, especially in that first week. You provide such a generous service through your account, Lydia, and it's not your job to do so. Why do you put so much time and energy into this content that you share?

[00:11:30.800] - Speaker 2

Lydia: Probably because I can't help myself, Helen. To be honest. It is something I've asked myself, because it is a lot of work, and we may well come on to ways in which I do support myself through this work as well, because I've always very much said that what I do on Instagram with regards to the news is given for free and that it always will be. And the reason for that is that if you ask people to pay for something, then that turns people off because they don't necessarily know whether it's going to be valuable and so on. In terms of news content, there are a lot of newspapers that do this where you have to pay to access the Times and the Telegraph and so on. And then there are other newspapers that do things for free, but you have to do ads. And my feeling is that if people are coming to learn something and they're coming to seek understanding, then I want to be able to help them find that understanding. Whatever that is, and that they should be able to access that for free. If they want to support me in other ways, then they can do that, and we will maybe talk about that.

[00:12:40.460] - Speaker 1

Helen: Let's do it. It's not something that I've ever discussed with the guests on the show before, simply because I haven't interviewed anybody who uses this form of generating financial support for their content. You use Patreon.

[00:12:55.760] - Speaker 2

Lydia: So I use two things, one of which is something linked to PayPal, which is called Kofi. And the idea is that you kind of, oh, I like your work and I'd love to buy your coffee. You go out for a chat with that person and buy them a coffee, and it's very much kind of figured to that level. So you kind of go in and I think it's usually donate three quid and you could do more if you wanted. And it's very kind of ad hoc casual. And the reason I set up Patreon is that it's a system whereby artists and creators can gain support very much on their own terms, and they're literally taking on patrons in the old sense of patrons of the arts, where you're getting something, but you're not necessarily in any control of what you're getting back. Different creators will do it in very different ways. But the way that I set it up originally was that it was more like it was a pay monthly coffee, as it were. So every month you'd be buying me a coffee and it was kind of set up. And basically my patrons didn't get anything back apart from thanks.

[00:14:06.070] - Speaker 2

They just got me access to my ordinary content because I very much said what I do is for free, and taking some of that content elsewhere kind of goes against that grain. But what I've done recently for my patrons is that we now have Zoom chats a couple of times a month. I share some of my opinions on Instagram, but I'm probably much more frank in that space because it's a much smaller space and I get to know people and therefore I know them better. And so I'm not speaking to a room full of people. I'm speaking to a couple of people at very close quarters. So it's a different environment. So that's something that I do for my patrons now. And they also are on my close friends list on Instagram. So that's another way that they kind of can be close to me.

[00:14:53.960] - Speaker 1

Helen: Do you know what? I need to understand the admin of this, Lydia? Do you occasionally shout out, I have a Patreon, would you like to make a donation this month, or is this a regular thing that people have contacted about via an email list? How does this all work?

[00:15:11.180] - Speaker 2

Lydia: I tend to think of it a bit more like political busking there. I've been talking over the past month and sharing my views, perspectives, links, articles, discussion, and so on. And at the end of the month, I'll kind of put my cap out and say, "if you want to buy me a coffee, here's how you do that. Here's a link. I also do Patreon if you want to do it that way." And I'm maybe a little bit coy about my Patreon on the basis, but it is quite a special little group and I actually don't want it to grow too fast because it's become a very personal thing. I like that it's there and people do come in and they come and find me, but I kind of don't shout about it a huge amount, but other creators do it in very different ways. I also have a very much a pay what you can scheme. So if you join my Patreon, I think the first tier is £5, the second is ten, I think the top one is 20, but everyone gets the same access. So you say, well, actually, I can afford 20 quid.

[00:16:08.860] - Speaker 2

I think Lydia is worth 20 quid a month or it's that kind of thing. But equally, most people are going to get most of my content for free because that's the way I do things and that's the way I want to do things. And I've very much said that I don't do sponsorship, I don't do ads, I don't have time for ads, quite frankly.

[00:16:26.470] - Speaker 1

Helen: I think I need to ask this question because it's what people listening will be wondering. But does this system of payment make it worth your while financially? You have to put a number on it, but in terms of how you consider the income, is it a good return on your time?

[00:16:42.250] - Speaker 2

Lydia: Erm. No. (laughter)

[00:16:45.890] - Speaker 1

Helen: Oh, my God. If most of us worked out how many hours we work on all this stuff versus our income.

[00:16:52.200] - Speaker 2

Lydia: My interest is.. I obviously pay for subscriptions for things like the Times and Financial Times and so on. That's part of what I do and I need to be able to access them. So my first priority is to make sure that I'm covering those expenses. It's nice to be supported and to have that financial thing, but it's a really tricky one because I could push it much harder. But equally, I'm always aware that there are so many things that people want to spend their money on and I will say, once a month, "do you want to give me a coffee? That's great, thank you very much". But equally, especially right now, when people are very much concentrating on, if I've got spare cash, I might want to give it to Ukraine, I might want to give it to another charity. And so I'm always aware of that. And so the opportunity is there and I welcome people supporting me, but I'm very aware that we all have so many demands and priorities on our money, especially in the current environment. I'm happy with what I'm doing. Yes, I could earn more money from it. But actually, I'm more concerned about people feeling supported and wanting to understand and learn and to find the news a less scary place.

[00:18:13.240] - Speaker 1

Helen: It's incredibly generous, Lydia. And I know that you have some, you know, really, you know, you've got a fan club of people and rightly so that follow your content. And I think the words that keep coming back in this conversation are around explaining and education and informing. And I think that anybody running any kind of social media account can start to think about how to generously give away their knowledge if they would like to not cynically grow a community. But you will grow a community around you if you can do that, won't you?

[00:18:56.730] - Speaker 2

Lydia: Interestingly. The way that I do things is actually completely against the grain of growing an account.

[00:19:03.540] - Speaker 1

Helen: Totally. People like me would say the absolute don't mix up two different things. Don't share huge, long videos and great big. But you just do what works for you, don't you? And it works for you.

[00:19:16.650] - Speaker 2

Lydia: Yeah. And there are people that do some fantastic information sharing and educating in a very short form. Blair Imani does have 60 Seconds Smarter, which is amazing. She's absolutely brilliant at it, and she covers a huge range of topics, and it's brilliant. Everything about that is fantastic. I couldn't even begin to mimic that even if I wanted to. And I would get much more engagement and shares and so on, if I came on and ranted and said "so and so is a terrible person about this other". And if I said this and I made big, bold statements, then actually that travels and engagement and stuff that gets an emotional response from people is a very valuable marketing tool. It's very basic. If you can engage somebody and anger is one of the ways that you can engage people, then your stuff will travel. And the way that I do things is actually much, much more complex in that I'm saying, okay, I can understand the anger here's some historical context, here are some other points of view here's something you might not have appreciated. And it's much, much more complicated. And therefore, I'm happy to do it that way because I think that that adds value.

[00:20:42.280] - Speaker 2

And over time, people have stayed with me and they stay with me and they talk to me and they find it useful. And actually, that's far more important to me than the numbers. And in fact, when the numbers go up, I'm like Crikey. To what extent do I need to kind of explain who I am, what I'm doing here? Because there is always going to be that cynicism that I must be being paid by somebody that I must be trying to and I must have an agenda and so on. And when I do have an agenda, my agenda is that I want people to be engaged in politics. I want them to feel part of the system. But it's not my business how they vote. It's not my business who they support. And trying to kind of create space for that, I think is really important because there just aren't enough spaces where people can come and not feel judged. I do express my opinion, but not, I hope, in any way that excludes people. I mean I'll exclude people who might be on the extremes. But I want it to be a place where people can find information without feeling that they have to be on a side.

[00:21:48.780] - Speaker 1

Helen: Are you on the receiving end, though, of other people's anger ever? Those people in the extremes? Do you find?

[00:21:58.290]

Lydia: people share their opinions with me? Am I attacked for having a point of view or anything like that? And the answer is absolutely not. I have a huge amount of privilege to be able to say what I think and feel and not be attacked. And I'm very aware that a lot of my colleagues on Instagram will receive all sorts of hate for saying exactly the same things that I do. I was talking with my friend Kiran, who runs the Munching Medic account. And Kiran is a Brown hijab wearing woman, and she's a paediatrician, and she talks about medicine, but she also talks about politics sometimes. And when she does, she's absolutely attacked. And the same for Medina on Grillo Designs. And I will say exactly the same thing and get no pushback at all. That is partly my privilege, and therefore, I need to use that platform in that way to say things that actually other people may be attacked for, for that very reason.

[00:22:56.580] - Speaker 1

Helen: You've mentioned a couple of great accounts there, Lydia. How can we assemble a chorus of great voices on Instagram to hear more about current affairs?

[00:23:07.500] - Speaker 2

Lydia: There are just so many and of course, the topic changes. When I was talking about covid, I would have a long list of medics, epidemiologists and scientists and so on, and now it switched to people that talk about Ukraine and so on. When I was covering the Afghanistan fallout last August,I had a long list of Afghan accounts, which I still follow, and it's still a great way of keeping up with what's going on in Afghanistan. So I always say that you're looking for opinions of people, opinions that don't match with yours, and that's actually quite uncomfortable. But you can learn to sit with that discomfort. People that don't look like you, people whose skin colour is different from yours, whose bodies are different from yours, who come from different economic backgrounds, who are doing different things. Maybe you do follow people who work in your sector and area, but also looking out for people that aren't in that range. And one of the issues with algorithms is that they feed you more and more of the stuff that you've looked for already. So it is quite important to occasionally go, oh, God, you know what? Instagram, like everything else, is pushing me into a very narrow space when I need to break out and just go and have a look through my other accounts that I follow and I've forgotten about.

[00:24:24.210] - Speaker 2

And I think that kind of refresh is important. And just be aware that we are naturally drawn to opinions that are like ours, worldviews that are like ours, and perspectives that reinforce our worldview. And we actually do need to break out of it. And so I kind of remind people that you do need to look out what else is going on. It doesn't mean you have to agree with it, but you do need to challenge your own reactions.

[00:24:51.510] - Speaker 1

Helen: Can I just ask you what it has been like running your account since the invasion of Ukraine? Are you led by the dialogue you're having with your followers, or are you inspired by something that has happened and you're like, I need to respond to this right now, both.

[00:25:09.930] - Speaker 2

So it really depends on the new cycle and what's coming out of it. And that if something big has happened, then I know that people will come straight to my account and be looking for my perspective. And so I might react to that if there's an awful lot of different things going on at once. So far, I've been using a lot of question boxes so that people can help me respond to their particular questions and fears.

[00:25:39.840] - Speaker 1

Helen: Because, as you say, a lot of news coverage leans into urgency in order to get our attention. But it can be really anxiety inducing.

[00:25:50.250] - Speaker 2

Lydia: Yeah, and of course it's anxiety inducing. And I've certainly done a lot of talking with people over the past few weeks about trying to measure up the risk to us in the UK, which I've very much said is low. And actually humans, I found this with Coronavirus, but humans aren't really very good at balancing or understanding risk. And so we often put a huge amount of anxiety on something that is scary but distant and unlikely. And we will still continue to do things that are inherently risky. So we will worry about the threat of nuclear weapons, but then we'll get in our car and drive. And actually, the driving is far more risky than anything that is likely to come from the sky. And so it's kind of just kind of trying to just ground people a little bit and go, it's not that the risk is not there, but we just need to put it in context and kind of just help people reassess a little bit and find some calm.

[00:26:57.730] - Speaker 1

Helen: You do such a brilliant job. I just want to talk to a different part of your soul for a minute. Lydia, the crafting side, what kind of designs do you make? Explain that to people who aren't already following you.

[00:27:11.620] - Speaker 2

Well, I think people following me for the politics might be completely surprised that I do do this, because I'm very bad at sharing that side, especially when it's busy because I'm concentrating on other things. But I live in one of the most beautiful parts of the country on the Suffolk Coast. It's wonderful place between land and sea, where we still have a beautiful river that goes out to the North Sea and there's a little fishing fleet there. And then we have the fields that are just alive with hares and wildlife. So my designs have always been inspired by those things. So my designs centre on things like hairs and seed heads and natural organic shapes like that. Foxes, moths, and then the sea aspect of crabs and lobsters. And I print onto natural fabrics and then make them into, I hope, useful items, mainly zipper bags that people can take for their toiletries and their packing and so on, but using very kind of quite organic colours generally and just trying to evoke a little bit of the Suffolk Coast is mainly I do.

[00:28:24.810] - Speaker 1

Helen: It really is beautiful, the area of the country that you live in, and I'm not surprised that it inspires you to create things. Finally, Lydia, your advice for someone who would like to run a social profile that shares all the things that they are passionate about, even if they don't naturally seem to fit together. How do you do that?

[00:28:53.210] - Speaker 2

Lydia: I honestly don't know, Helen. I mean, I just think that we're all complex beings and none of us is single dimensional in any way, shape or form. We all have multiple interests, and sometimes those things don't necessarily fit together naturally. But the audience is also capable of seeing you in more than one dimension. People can consume a lot of variety in a person, I think, but also just being very clear with your boundaries about well, actually, I don't know the answer to that and being clear about what you are prepared and not prepared to share. And I know that people find that quite difficult to respond to sometimes. But I think you've just got to be clear about how you're serving your audience and is serving your audience, actually putting you in a place where you're not capable in some way, shape or form, whether that's emotionally or information wise. And actually, you're not serving your community if you're just kind of throwing something at them.

[00:29:56.240] - Speaker 1

Helen: You say that you're not a strategist or a planner. Lydia, do you have any plans for your account in future, or are you just going to carry on and see where it takes you literally?

[00:30:07.260] - Speaker 2

Lydia: Literally, yes, Helen, because I haven't had a plan ever. And when I look back at how my content has evolved, it's changed so much over different times. And that's also reflected what's going on in my life and what I've been capable of at certain times myself. And there was a point last year when I disappeared from Instagram for about two months, but nobody noticed for about six weeks. And that was perfect. I wasn't looking for people to come to me. And just by being quiet, people found their stuff elsewhere and so on. But when big things happen, they were like, " where's Lydia, I haven't seen her for ages." So people did pick up after a while, they haven't seen me around. But that's ideal. I don't want to be front and centre on people's faces every day. That's not necessary or not what I'm looking for. And so I'm always hoping that I can give people the tools that they can go off and feel the confidence of it. And then if people want to come back to my account, that's great. But I think in my life, I'm possibly unusual because I'm always trying to do less rather than more.

[00:31:13.250] - Speaker 2

Because I've always got other projects going on. And I need to space and time for those projects. So I'm always hoping in the end to do less. And then the world confronts me and I find I'm here.

[00:31:23.170] - Speaker 1

Helen: Well, yeah, that certainly seems to have been unrelenting perma crisis, I think some people call it. Yes. In summary, don't underestimate what people can cope with from us. In terms of our consistency or different aspects of our character and our interests. But don't overestimate how much they're thinking about us. We can have quiet times and take space if we need to. Lydia, it's been such a pleasure chatting to you. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for what you do. And good luck keeping your energy up with it in the coming weeks and months.

[00:31:59.980] - Speaker 2

Lydia: Thanks, Helen. That's been super.

[00:32:04.270] - Speaker 1

Helen: The marketer in me has to struggle not to say to Lydia "charge more, push the Patreon more often". But I think that would be to misunderstand why she's using social media. Her account is the perfect example of designing your own way of doing things. Sharing in a way that stays true to your values. I think we can become untethered from those it's when the whole business of marketing can feel gross and hard work and unrewarding. I also think it's really interesting what she says about how she does not get attacked. For sharing certain thoughts, views or information where other visible women from different backgrounds do. It's important to be aware of. Let's talk more about values another time. Big topic. Thank you for being here. I'm grateful for every lesson and special shout out to Dallas, Texas, where Suze the producer has noticed we have an unexpectedly loyal listeners. Thank you, Dallas. I'll be back soon. Bye.