Lovely Lydia Talks To... Sara Venn, writer and food activist
Lydia
And my God, this is the third time. I've now switched off my Internet so we're just on phone signal, but third time lucky this should be the Lydia Talks to with Sarah Venn, food activist and writer and we're going to be talking about the Australia deal and also about food sustainability and making a fairer food system. And thank you. Sorry, guys, for this. It's so annoying. Hopefully we should be okay my internet has been dodgy for ages.
Lydia
So it always lets you down at the right moment doesn't it? There we go. I think we should be better. So sorry Sara
Sara
That's alright I've turned my Internet off, and I'm on my phone.
Lydia
Yeah, actually it's better as president. So thank you, everyone, for coming back on. And for those people who hadn't joined at that crucial moment, I do need to say again for the record that it is Sara's birthday today and she's come on to talk about food and farming and making a fairer food system so enormous thanks to Sara on her birthday and it's very special that you're here with us. I did put on some special perfume for you so I can assure you that I smell delicious, even though that won't have registered.
Sara
Did you? That's great to know!
Lydia
So let's let's kind of dive in. I was talking earlier about the Australia deal, that the UK wants to strike with with Australia, oddly enough. And the main contention being around the issues with food and farming and the potential to open the UK markets up to Australian food products, basically. And I was recalling back when Brexit was still something we were being promised rather than something that was a reality, was that one of the objectives of Brexit was to provide cheap.
Lydia
That's something that to me sounds very, very worrying, and I think it's the connotation of the word 'cheap' that maybe unsettled me, but what kind of strikes you when you hear that phrase?
Sara
So the idea that we can make any food any cheaper is ridiculous, utterly ridiculous. As it is, the average farmer gets about 77% of what we pay for anything out of the supermarket. And, you know, and it's other people that are making money from from the system. So we can't make food any cheaper unless we are prepared for our farmers not to be paid properly, unless we are prepared for cheaper production, which is inevitably going to mean really poor standards, you know, really, really poor, particularly meat production standards, but, you know, more chemicals, more antibiotics, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Sara
And it's going to open the way for cheap food to come in from abroad, from wherever and places like Australia that, you know, and this is no shade on Australian farmers. But, you know, their food standards are a lot lower than ours. They, you know, their meat is raised in feedlots. They create, they have a huge antibiotic sort of reliance. There's all sorts of hideous things. You know, they skin they skin live sheep.
Lydia
Oh, no, eurgh.
Sara
I think that's enough for me because I don't need to tell you anymore.
Lydia
I mean I mean, the government has done I mean, Greg Hands, the trade minister has said in the House of Commons that farmers have nothing to fear from this trade deal, that the UK would not accept these lower standard food products. Well, however...
Sara
However, we have a government that likes to tell porky pies
Lydia
You don't say, no. I can't I can't accept that.
Sara
But I have to say, I just think that maybe, and also Useless is involved in all of this. So I just I just think in a way, it's a kind of perfect storm.
Lydia
Although, what I find interesting was that actually Useless has objected to this trade deal, which I think is interesting, along with Michael Gove, who was you know, he was the one of the great architects of Brexit. He was one of the people that stood up in the House of Commons and said one of the things we will get from our trade deals with third countries will be cheaper food. So I find it very odd both that Useless has objected
Lydia
Maybe I don't find that so surprising. I maybe find it more surprising that Gove has. But then Gove was also one of the architects of the agriculture bill, was he not?
Sara
He was. And you know, Gove was one of those people who stood on Countryfile and promised the world and said, you know, we won't do anything to lower our food standards. Our farmers have nothing to be worried about. I think the thing with the Australia deal is that in reality, it probably won't, there probably won't be boatloads of food arriving from Australia, not the actual the deal itself. It's what it opens us up to. And I think that is a really important thing here, that people say, oh, well, I just won't buy it.
Sara
But the reality is the cheaper the product, the more likely you are to buy it without realising. So these this is food stuff that will go into pies, it will go into cheap ready meals. And those things will all be labelled as British because they are finished in the UK. So you have no idea that you're eating this food.
Lydia
I want to come back to food labelling because that's something you've talked about a lot. But also just on the aspect of foods that we don't know where it comes from, the other kind of the place where this food ends up is also places like hospital food, school dinners, things like that where actually you as a consumer are not making the choice because you're not making it. And so potentially the people who are most vulnerable, potentially are also going to have these these other foodstuffs.
Lydia
So that's always a point to raise. I mean, just circling back slightly to the kind of legislation on this on the on the agriculture bill, but mostly on the trade bill, when we say that the government has promised the food standards won't be lowered, of course, the House of Lords tried to get that enshrined in the trade bill and the government threw it out.
Sara
Of course they did and then they said, you can trust us.
Lydia
You can trust us. We're not going to put it on vellum. We're not going to put it in law. But you can trust us that we're not going to do this. But legally, there's nothing to restrain them from doing this at all. And I think that that is something that we need to be aware of. But going back to the food labelling, you were just saying there that we won't know that these products are from Australia or from wherever they may come from, because, of course, this trade deal, it's it's considered that this trade deal will only kind of expand the market a tiny bit.
Lydia
But it's what it leads to, you know, whether that's the Trans-Pacific, the CTPPP
Sara
Yeah.
Lydia
And also the precedent it sets for potential trade deals with the US, China, anywhere else. And so how as consumers, could we be duped into buying things that we don't know where they come from?
Sara
So if you buy a piece of meat, a steak that is a raw product, effectively, if you buy it and it's a product, it will say on it where it comes from. So if you buy steak and it says it's British, it's British.
Lydia
Yeah
Sara
If you buy a beef pie and it says it's British. All it means is that the pie has been made in the U.K. The the whatever the ingredients were will have come from, could have come from all around the world. And the cheaper the the the product, the less likely it is that the meat has been ethically grown.
Lydia
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, are there, I mean, this is something that I think is a challenge across all sorts of things where where people can and are trying to be more sustainable in their purchasing, whether that's food, whether that's clothing. Actually companies will tell us things and it's very difficult for a consumer to dig below the kind of the blurb, as it were, because everyone wants to be, you know, yes, it's grown in Britain. I mean, how many of our supermarkets claim that everything that they sell is from the UK?
Sara
All of them
Lydia
Because that's something that really appeals to us. And it's not just the UK that does that, you know, you find it in Australia as well as it happens, you know, 'grown in Australia'. Is something that's really big over there and so how how do consumers, where can we go to find out a bit more about where things are... You know, how can we see through the hype?
Sara
So, I mean, it's it's not easy to see through the hype. That's that's the first thing. And and it's really complicated. The entire system has been made really, really complicated. And that's no, that's no surprise. You know, I think there's some deliberate complications to be put in there. So we don't necessarily quite see what's in front of us, almost. Erm I mean, you know, the best way to ensure that you're buying food that's being grown well and not even necessarily in the UK, but has been grown to the standards that we would like to see is purely and simply to know what is in season when.
Sara
So that if you if you want strawberries for Christmas, you know, let's face it, lots of us want strawberries for Christmas. Strawberries aren't grown in the UK at Christmas time. They just they just aren't. They just can't be. And that is it. So those strawberries will have come not only from probably a greenhouse in Spain, but probably a greenhouse in Spain where the staff have not been treated very well. Where there's all sorts of pesticide use that you probably wouldn't want on your soft fruit if you chose to think about it, you know, has probably been flown in.
Sara
That's another massive thing. You know, should we be flying food across the world or I don't, you know? So I think seasonality is really important. But I also think being really aware of what is in your local area and trying to buy from local producers. Now, I know that there is a whole 'oh, but that's not accessible'. And and that is a fair comment. But the reason that's not accessible is because food has become in some spaces this very middle class conversation around.
Sara
Oh, you know, but the reality of those middle class conversations is that actually, you know, people think that they want this sustainable, green, lively, you know, lifestyle. But when you go and you talk to so I was speaking recently to a guy who runs three three organic supermarkets here in Bristol and you know Bristol, I know is seen as, we're all crazy hippies. We run around with no shoes, etc., etc.. That's not true, by the way
Lydia
Is it not? That's a shame
Sara
Sorry, you know, but he was and here's why it's not true. He was saying actually put carrots side by side, one that has obviously just come out of the field, one that has been washed. The ones that have been washed will go first. And that's crazy. We have to learn that our food is grown in the ground and it's going to be dirty until it's washed. And we can wash it just as easily as somebody else can. And if we wash it, it will be marginally cheaper because they haven't had to process them on site.
Sara
So I just you know, I think it's it's just that thing of just opening our eyes and being a little bit more aware that our food system has become this great corporate machine that sends lorries up and down motorways and drives carrots from Cornwall to the Midlands and then back to Cornwall again and then somewhere else and actually, does it need to be that complicated? Could we not just all find our local farmer and buy stuff from him? I mean, why don't we?
Sara
I think that's the next interesting conversation. And of course, we have because it's the great big corporate distribution system that makes people wealthy.s
Lydia
Sure, I'm not disputing that, although there are areas of the country that grow predominantly more one type of crop than others. And I mean, one of the things I've always tried to get across when I've been talking about agriculture is actually how diverse the UK is in terms of what grows where but where I am in East Anglia, you know, our crops are onions, wheat, barley and pigs and sugar beet.
Both
And mangle worzels!
Lydia
Oh, yes, absolutely. But, you know, so there are different things that are grown in different parts of the UK because our soil types are different. You know, Jersey Royals come from Jersey, etc, you know, is I mean, there must be layers. But I'm always interested in talking to farmers, sort of round here how international their thinking is when they're talking about wheat prices, they're also talking about the sanctions in Russia and they're also talking about, you know, what's happening with the export of pork in China, et cetera, and how international that is.
Lydia
And I certainly feel that the Brexit rhetoric is really kind of pushed this idea that farmers should be looking further afield than the UK. But, of course, we import a huge amount. I mean, about half of our food is imported, is it not?
Sara
Yeah. I mean, it's but we also so our import and export is crazy. So we import the same amount of potatoes. No, we export the same amount of potatoes to Poland as we import potatoes from Poland because the Polish will eat the ones that we go, oh no, they look a bit gnarly. We don't want to eat those. And equally we get the cream of the crop from Poland.
Lydia
Yeah, I mean, all of these kind of initiatives to kind of one, you know, eat nobbly veg and stuff that's slightly different shapes and sizes and so on. I mean, to what extent do we know whether that's taken off? I mean, I quite often buy that stuff because, I mean, if you buy the I mean, it's still around. You can still buy it. But I wouldn't call that stuff particularly nobbly that you can buy.
Sara
I would just call it veg.
Lydia
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah as would I.
Sara
That's that's still stuff that's not making the grade.
Lydia
Yeah, that's really interesting. I suppose, you know, one of the purposes of this evening is to talk about, you know, how we make businesses more sustainable. And the one point I did want to raise, you were talking about, you know, whether we are prepared to wash our veg and so on. And one of the things that we should be taking into account is not just about the cost of food, but about time poverty and accessibility in terms of access to, you know, kitchen equipment and, you know, being aware that
Lydia
I'm just going back to when we were talking about free school meals and a lot of judgement that was put on and parents and families saying, well, you know, 'why don't you just make soup?' And saying, well, it's not that bloody simple necessarily, because if you're living in a bedsit and you've only got a microwave, actually making soup is really quite difficult. Yes. I mean, what what's what's the kind of potential answer to that? You know, we know that there are a lot of working families out there that are very cash and time poor.
Lydia
How do we make the system more open to everybody?
Sara
Well, there there is the two hundred fifty seven thousand million dollar question. So, I mean, I think it's I think we have to just pare it back a bit. So just so that everybody knows, I'm a trustee of an organisation called Feeding Bristol and we support food poverty. And actually what we do is we fight for food justice. So it's a positive rather than a negative. But what you do have to understand that and everybody has to understand that the the the lack of equity in the food system is not really brought about by the food system.
Sara
It's brought about by the political system. So the fact that we have working families who can't afford to pay to put decent food on the table is a shocking indictment on the world that we live in. Frankly, we, I don't know how wealthy we are, but we're not poor as a country. And yet we have these pockets of real deprivation. And and, you know, there's a whole lot of myth around that. You know, if one more person says to me, they've all got mobile phones, yeah but you have to have a mobile phone to access the benefits department, so just be quiet now.
Sara
So, I mean, the whole poverty thing, the whole food poverty thing, it's not about food poverty. It's just about poverty. You know, you can pretty much guarantee you simply can't afford to put food on the table for their children. Their children probably need new shoes. They probably haven't got their heating on. You know, it's it's dire. I think the problem is that we do this thing where we rely. So we have this very corporate food system and then we have this very charitable food aid system.
Sara
And in a way, we are back in Victorian times. You know, effectively the food bank is the equivalent of the poor house and nobody wants to nobody wants to go to the poor house and nobody wants to go to the food bank. But but nonetheless, in 2020-21, two million, five hundred and thirty seven [thousand], one hundred and ninety eight people use the food bank.
Lydia
Wow.
Sara
That's a shock. Absolutely shocking
Lydia
Huge, huge shock, and that number is growing I understand?
Sara
So, in 2008, it was 25,000 people.
Lydia
Jesus.
Sara
Yeah. So I think, you know what happened in 2010 that everything might change.
Lydia
I can't think what what happened in 2010. So, you know, it's it's dire. But the problem is that we have this charitable sector and this and this corporate sector and the charitable sector are saying to the corporate sector 'you must give us food' and the corporate sector saying 'we can't actually afford to give you any more food than we're giving you now'. And we add into that then, a short distribution system that has a three day limit on it.
Sara
You know, if something goes wrong, we have three days of food available to us at all times. So I think. I mean, system change, that's what we need, we need a system change because until we can resource grassroots communities to empower themselves and to be supported to actually create systems whereby they have the wherewithal and the ability to to create a change. I can't imagine where we go. I mean, I'm going to give you an example, there's an area in Bristol called Hartcliffe.
Sara
Now, everybody thinks that Bristol is, you know, the land of milk and honey. It's really wealthy. Clifton, it's lovely suspension bridge. And yes, that's that's lovely. But there are, south Bristol is a completely different thing altogether. There's an area of Bristol called Hartcliffe, which is in I think it's in the top five percent of the deprived neighbourhoods in the country. And it's certainly one of the top 10, the food deserts in the country.
Sara
And the problem with Hartcliffe is that it was it was I'm going to use the word 'designed' really loosely. It was plonked on the edge of Bristol post war so that people could just go there. There was no infrastructure put in place. It had a high street for a while. And then there was a bit of a riot, which we're not allowed to talk about, and then shops shut. And then Morrison's came in and to quote the the manager of Morrisons, 'if I could get away without selling fruit and veg, I would'
Lydia
Why, why?
Sara
Just because. Because nobody buys it, but the reason nobody buys it is because there is a complete lack of understanding because there's a complete lack of resources, there's a complete lack of sort of social infrastructure, you know, it's an area that has broken down, effectively, socially because the lack of resource is so huge because no no party really wants anything to do with it. You know, anything that's progressive, it's like, oh, no, we don't want to go out there because they don't care.
Sara
And actually, they do care, they care really, really strongly, but they just haven't got the resources to be able to stand up and go, 'please, somebody, can you do something?' But when you go up there and you say to people, right, OK, I'm not going to tell you what we do, I'm just going to say, what can we do for you? You know, roughly what we do. What can we do for you?
Sara
They're like 'Oh, could we do that? Can we do that? Can we do the other?' And suddenly you see that there's this is empowerment of people going 'oh actually, we could do this and we could create this here. And actually we've got quite a lot of green space. And we could make not only could we grow food, but we could also create livelihoods and jobs'. But the reality is the political system doesn't want them to do that. It wants them to get on a bus every day, travel to the other side of the city or work in a factory.
Lydia
Yeah. Yeah. And and the system will continue to penalise them if you choose to do differently.
Sara
And if, you know, the kids are brought up in schools where they are told, I mean, I will never forget this kid saying this to me. This boy said to me, aged nine, 'I'm going to go into the army. That's all I'm good for. I'm an underachiever.' And you just say if if you were nine years old and you're saying that.
Sara
Then what happened was suddenly he went.' Oh, oh, farming's a job, isn't it? I can be a farmer'.
Lydia
Yeah, you can be
Sara
Yeah, but if nobody is talking about food in within schools and within, you know, settings that aren't just home and people, you've got to be told something's a job. I mean, my experience of coming into horticulture was that somebody had to poke me, go, 'Sara, why don't you just go into horticulture?' Oh, because I've never really thought about it. You know, you need you need somebody to go. 'You can do this.'
Lydia
Yeah. Yeah. And the sort of, you know, that's all your good for conversation is just. Oh, my goodness, my goodness. It's just too much.
Sara
I think also, this is thing that people think, oh, you know, people in those areas can't cook. They don't know what they're doing, they're not interested. They don't know anything about veg. And it's just not true. It's just that actually I can't cook because I haven't got a cooker.
Lydia
Exactly. There's also an argument and I had this I was chatting with somebody the other day about this who was talking about and, you know, that vegetarian. And she also said vegan diets were so much cheaper. And my understanding isn't generally the actually vegetables per calorie are actually very expensive, was my kind of understanding of things that actually if you have a very small food budget that in some ways fresh vegetables in particular would be a luxury because the amount of calories you get for the veg is actually.
Lydia
So, in fact, you know, kind of I mean, I don't know what you if you have a particular opinion on that, but my general understanding is that, you know, getting calories into people when you're on a very, very low budget often means that you will eschew the veg.
Sara
Yeah, I mean, I have I have a lot of opinions on everything Lydia, but my opinion on that is not actually my opinion. My opinion on that is from a mum saying to me, you know, I know I should feed my children veg, but actually I need to make sure that they're full after they've had their tea.
Sara
And I think that actually to turn around and say to people, oh, we should all we should all be vegan, is immensely privileged and very judgemental and people should just go away and think about it.
Lydia
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I just think with so many things that I'm always talking about, it's it's trying to recognise that our experience is only our experience. And we are so often blind to millions of other experiences out there that we just may not we may never come across. And I'm being aware that there is a huge amount of difference in our society. And just actually a lot of people just can't comprehend not having the things that they have.
Lydia
And I think one of the sad realities of the pandemic, in addition to austerity, has been a number of families literally having the rug pulled out from under them. And, you know, there is nothing for the benefit system underneath and then finding out that actually the benefit system isn't there to help you thrive.
Sara
It's not there to help you thrive. And I also think that there are a lot of people who, if you'd have looked three years ago, would never have thought that they would be in the position that they're in now. You know, people who were people who are in good jobs with big mortgages and three kids and all of that stuff, that is an expensive lifestyle who suddenly have literally had the rug pulled from underneath them and are having to access things like food banks.
Sara
And are really shocked that actually when you go to the food bank, you get given three days worth of food. It's not you don't get to choose what you've got. Theres's nothing fresh in it. You know, there's a packet of biscuits, but ask for an apple and they'll just tell you, no, you know, so so, you know, and I do think that there are a lot of people realising suddenly that actually as a society, we need to pull this back.
Sara
But the only way we're going to pull it back is by doing it ourselves.
Lydia
Yeah. Yeah. Which again, goes back to, you know, the charitable system and relying on on the charitable system. Could you just remind us quickly why fresh fresh food isn't part of the food banks? Is that is that partly, you know, just where it's a storage issue.
Sara
It's a storage issue. So most food banks are in the back of church halls and they just don't have the storage system that can be passed as being a safe storage system for food. So it's not a, it's not a you know, it's nothing. We can't be bothered. It's genuinely a food safety issue, which is really sad.
Lydia
Yeah, it's a huge shame. You know, just think we can do with just just having an onion. Yeah. It's an absolute gamechanger to everything. But yeah, I mean, one of the things that really struck me at the beginning of the pandemic was, one of the conversations about people kind of going, oh, well, I'm using up my store cupboard and going 'do you realise how middle class that is?' In order to have a cupboard full of food waiting to go.
Lydia
And yeah, I mean, that was something that really kind of made me go that's amazing that that really kind of reframed my thoughts on on many things as things you just take for granted. Yeah. Of having having spices having those bits and pieces. And I think the free school meals has really opened up that debate has taken up a lot of valuable thought in people's minds and reassessing what they understand about how you feed your families. But just go back to some of your projects and just thinking about how communities can start that.
Lydia
I mean, would you say that edible Bristol and your work are models that you hope that other communities are going to take on?
Sara
Yes, I mean, there's one hundred and forty incredible edible groups across the country. So, you know, there's a fair amount of people doing it already. There is there is no reason why people can't do it, the only reason that there really is is is the usual story, which is land access and looking at how we can make that more more equitable and looking at how people who, you know, pay their council tax, go to work, come home, you know, feel that they've got some kind of involvement in their community, don't actually ever really feel that they've got the power to say, but this is what we want.
Sara
And I think we have to caveat that with also that, you know, there are some great people who work in local authorities. I'm just I'm just going to say, just in case anybody from Bristol City Council is watching, you're all amazing. However, there are there are a kind of you know, and I see this I see why this is the case. But there is an officer level that is literally on a default setting of no, because they've seen half of their departments decimated by cuts.
Sara
They've you know, they're doing the job of three people where they used to do just one person's job. And the thought that a community might go and do something and get it wrong will make a mess. So they'd have to go in and sort out. It's just like right no. So I'm not I'm not going to say yes to that. And a lot of what we do is we kind of move people around those barriers so that they can find the right person to speak to.
Sara
And I mean, the one thing that I have learnt over the last seven years is I now know who to speak to and on speed dial, you know, because because there's a lot of nonsense and it is nonsense. But, you know, if you live, if you live and there's 10 houses around a piece of green land and the council come along twice a year to cut the grass and that's it, then why shouldn't you have a say in what happens, whatever it is you want to do, you know, whether it's putting up a goalpost for your kids or growing a load of food, why shouldn't you why shouldn't you have a say?
Lydia
Yeah, that's a really good point. It's a really good point. And but also thinking about those kind of charitable groups and also another aspect which is very much on my mind is the kind of the nice white parents aspect of we know what we're doing because we are people of privilege. I'm going to go. I want to go. No, no, no. You're not doing that right now. You need to do it this way. No, no, no, no.
Lydia
I hear you. But actually, I think you'll find how do groups groups avoid doing that and basically those who already have, shall we say, a strong voice from kind of talking over other people, how how do we prevent that?
Sara
So actually, it's quite easy.
Lydia
OK good
Sara
So those people who have got a voice and who like going to a meeting will turn up to a first meeting and at that first meeting. I will be there going 'we're going to do this and if you give us some help we're going to do this and we're going to do this'. And and then and then I say and on Saturday we're going to meet at the place and we're going to start and they go, what do you mean?
Sara
We need to create a board and a funding strategy and a bank account and I go 'have you got a spade?' And they go, oh, OK. So just bring your spade along and you never see them again.
Lydia
Wow, that sounds very effective
Sara
The people who want to talk are not the people who want to do.
Lydia
That's interesting. I'm just I'm thinking how I can apply that to the many committees in my village. That's really interesting, actually. And that's sort of the physical do-ers.
Sara
Yeah. And then what tends to happen is you will you will you will meet the new the new cohort, which are the people who are going to be the group. And within that there is always one person who's had an allotment for one hundred years or who's grown food in their back garden since they were tiny and who really knows what they're doing. But is quite quiet and quiet, you know, doesn't really want to push themselves forward. But they are the people that we work with and they kind of lead it from behind.
Lydia
Yeah, that's interesting
Sara
And you see those people finding a voice which is immensely powerful.
Lydia
Wonderful. The other thing which I saw on your recent foray into Countryfile was the fantastic little veg patch that you just created on top of a cardboard box. I was like 'that's absolutely genius' no digging, none of that. Like, it doesn't have to be hard. We just put a box down and we cover it with Earth and then we plant our vegetables like that's amazing. Let's do that
Sara
Really, really easy, doesn't hurt the soil, keeps the soil structure happy, feeds the ecological system underneath the earth and means that you don't have to hurt your back.
Sara
And I'm a big fan of not hurting backs. So, yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, that said that that project is a case in, you know, that is a hugely difficult and divided area of the city, but, you know, those people who have come together around that space, they're just people who get on with it, they just do it. You know, we don't really want to be on camera, but if if it means that we get a bit notice taken of, some people come and join in, then that's fine.
Sara
You know, but but most of those people that you saw on that programme lived in sort of 10 stories up in flats, literally opposite the space. So, you know, and yeah. So those kind of projects are amazing.
Lydia
And it was it was really a great little piece. And I'm just aware of time and thinking about a lot of the things that we've talked about, because we start with the Australia deal. And what are the kind of the key points you would really kind of want people to take away? I mean, one of the things that was really striking to me that you said earlier was about food labelling, for example, what are the kind of the key things that you'd like people to be aware of and to to look to change?
Sara
So I think the biggest thing to be aware of is that if you think, oh, that's really cheap, ask yourself why. You know, because if something is really cheap in the same way as if fast fashion is cheap, et cetera, et cetera, if it's cheap, there's somebody being exploited in the chain.
Lydia
Yeah, someone's paying for it somewhere.
Sara
Absolutely. So that's one thing that I would like to think about. I'd also like to think people to think about. And I think it's really important that we think about who grows our food and and actually who do you want to grow your food? And I'm not suggesting for a minute that everybody goes to self-sufficiency and we never use a supermarket ever again. That is crazy. But I do think it's important that we look at who does grow our food and and what does that look like?
Sara
And I also think it's really useful to look at and be slightly cynical, walk in with your cynical head on when you go to the supermarket. If there are, you know, I tell you what a prime example Tescos, have all these fake farms. So Willow Farm being a prime example, lots of their meat apparently come from Willow Farm. But Willow Farm isn't farm. It's just a brand. And I think it's really important that people see that and you know, just to be aware of that, because actually quite often that those branding situations are there for a reason.
Sara
And they're there because actually they probably they're probably not great quality.
Lydia
Hmm. Yeah. And there's a sort of, you know, it once looked cute and cuddly, but it quite possibly isn't.
Sara
Yeah. You know, make sure things have got a red tractor on them. If they've got a red tractor on them, they've at least you know, they've, they've got there's a box being ticked there. Buy the best you can. But equally, I think there's something to be said about just buying what you need. Write a shopping list, buy what you need, and try to avoid waste. Because I think I think what's really interesting so I mean, you know, I know that people's shopping bills are high and I know that, you know, Tescos are all and all of the other supermarkets.
Sara
I'm not just picking Tescos are designed so that you walk into the supermarket and you spend a hundred quid. That's what they want you to do. But I think it's really important that whilst we think that food is expensive, in the 1950s, we spent 40 percent of our salaries on food and now we spend about 10 percent. So
Lydia
That's interesting
Sara
In terms of spend, we spend far less now than we ever have, and I think, you know, there are a whole load of social reasons why that is. Houses, houses were not the ridiculous prices that they are now, then.
Sara
So people wouldn't have had huge mortgages. You know, things have changed in the way we sort of have to manage our budgets. But nonetheless, I do think that that's an interesting thing, because when you look at forty percent and then you look at 10 percent and then you realise that actually there's a massive distribution chain that's making money as well as the supermarkets. Where is your money going? Yeah. Yeah. And buy local get a veg box, you know, get a Riversfords veg box and actually go, you know, when you get it and go, oh God, what am I going to do with that? Actually, find out what you can do with it.
Lydia
It's quite fun, although when I when I once got a veg box, I actually ended up spending more money because I was like, let's make a special meal around each piece of veg. Yeah, and then I found I was spending an absolute fortune on like, now I'm going to leek pie tonight we're going to have and then of course they kept on giving me beetroot so I basically cannot even look at a beetroot.
Sara
No, but I mean, it's always going to be very cabbage heavy in the winter.
Lydia
I love cabbage, it's a much underrated vegetable, it really is
Sara
But I don't want to eat it three times a day.
Lydia
No, no, no. I think that's fair. But I mean, there are some great things out there. And also, I think on the, you know, cooking on a budget stuff, people like Jack Monroe have been fantastic.
Both
Yeah, absolutely amazing.
Sara
Yeah, she is. She is. I absolutely love her. She is brilliant. Well worth a follow on social media, although I think she's disappeared from social media for a while, but I think she'll be back. So, yeah, sure. Absolutely. She's worth a follow. But I also, so there's an interesting fact here that the more food TV you watch, the less likely you are to cook.
Lydia
Oh now that is interesting
Sara
So that's an interesting fact. So, yes, don't beat yourself up about not being able to make your food look like Nigella Lawson's. Doesn't matter what it looks like, you know, it matters what it tastes like and that it's, you know, reasonably good for you.
Lydia
Oh, yeah, exactly. And I know quite a few food photographers and kind of food stylists and the food waste that goes into that is unreal. I mean, I actually started Lovely Lydia, when I first started, was actually a food blog and I stopped doing it because I wasn't prepared to either waste food or actually the most delicious food. Doesn't look very good.
Sara
No, it doesn't.
Lydia
It really doesn't. And I decided that I wanted to do other things, so I stopped doing that. But I still cook a lot. And actually my husband is taking over a lot of the cooking and he's got very good, too. It's really nice. Yeah, that's yeah. So I'm getting a little bit of kind of confidence as well is massive. When I first met him he could only put hot water into a bag of pasta, you know the kind that you mix up and it has a sauce like that was his cooking and I now he might cook seven days a week.
Sara
So I think it's worth saying, I know lots of people really lacking in confidence around the kitchen, but most places have some really brilliant community cooking places that you can go and learn. And and the more people they have, the more likely they are to keep going. So I think, you know, hide your pride, just just go and get involved, because you always have. They're always brilliant.
Lydia
Yeah. I mean, I think I think communities as well and actually the more diverse your community and actually the more ways you're going to find to deal with that cabbage, frankly. Yeah. Many different cuisines and what they will do with a cabbage. And, you know, there's so much out there in terms of, you know, options, and it's just about finding them.
I've been taught by some quite diverse people, what to do with my cabbages in the past in the nicest possible way. Sara, will you stop talking about cabbage?
Lydia
You mean, the people from Bristol City Council then?
Sara
Not really, no, go away with your cabbage, we don't need your cabbage.
Lydia
But that's a different conversation entirely. But yeah, this has been fantastic. Sarah and hopefully what I'll do after this is I'll share your project down at Edible Bristol, but maybe we'll share some links if you let me know what will be useful for people. And of course this will be available on IGTV it's also going to become a podcast and a full transcript will be available because, of course, we haven't been able to do subtitles tonight.
Sara
So as soon as that's available, I will let you know. And it's been great, do you want to have the final word?
Lydia
Um, no, not really!
Lydia
Just put you on the spot
Sara
Thank you for coming everybody just, you know, just just get out there and grow some food. There you are, that'll do.
Lydia
Yeah, I now have an apple tree and it's already got quite a lot of apples on it and I'm quite excited about that, it's the first thing I've ever grown
Sara
You do know, you do have to thin the apples.
Lydia
Oh do I? Oh crikey, no I didn't know that. Right I'm going to have to look that up now.
Sara
Google 'thinning my apples' and Monty will tell you how to do it.
Lydia
Oh will he? Oh good, that's perfect. Thanks for that because I wouldn't have known to do that thank goodness we have this live. Sara, thank you so much for coming on this evening.
Lydia
I was an absolute pleasure to chat to you. And I know that lots of people will find this really interesting. So I will point them all towards you and all of your resources.
Sara
Marvellous thank you for having me
Lydia
Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Take care. Thanks for coming, everyone.